How to Sell Podcast: Learn to Master B2B Sales and Lead Generation

Luigi Prestinenzi: 00:00

This week, we are joined by Andrea Waltz, author of Go For No. Now this is an interesting episode because we're gonna be talking about the importance of getting no in the sales process. Now you might be thinking, I don't wanna get a no. I need yeses. Yeses get me bank.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 00:16

And absolutely, yeses get you bank. But so many deals in sales today end up in the dredged no decision area or no decision zone of your sales pipeline. Some stats tell us, you know, 40% of deals, don't say yes or no. They just have no decision, and they're the worst because then they just sit there in your pipe, and they just become like a graveyard of deals that go nowhere. So what Andrew talks about is embracing the no, is, you know, getting to know is the foundation of building success.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 00:51

Setting no targets. This is actually awesome episode, and you're gonna get a lot out of it. So, also, where have I been the last 2 weeks? I didn't post a podcast in this last week. I was actually at a really insane conference, and I learned heaps around customer advocacy and why loving your customer, providing that unique experience is key in building a community of engaged, you know, engaged partners, not just just customers.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 01:16

So I'll release a little bit more of of of what I learned in the next couple of weeks. So as always, I'm really, really the, the the comments and the feedback are very humbling. So keep sending them over. Keep giving us feedback. And, you know, we've we've got a few great guests coming up based on the feedback that you've given us on the type of, you know, people you want us to to talk to.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 01:37

So we're gonna be talking to some interesting sales leaders and practitioners who implement these concepts every single day. So guys, buckle up, get a pen out, wherever you're listening, enjoy the episode, because this will be a blast. So really excited to, have another international guest in our show. So welcome to the show, Andrea.

Andrea Waltz: 02:01

Hello. It is so great to be with you.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 02:03

Thanks so much. Yeah. Well, thank you very much for coming on to our podcast this week. And, we're really excited to talk about the no theory and, you know, why going for no will help you, you know, increase your sales results. But before we get into that, we'd love to hear a bit more about about you and how you started in the world of sales.

Andrea Waltz: 02:23

Yeah. I'm my background is in retail sales. And I started that was my fur very first job was selling it in a record store when those still existed. And, records and CDs. And, so, yeah, I spent my first 10 years in sales was really in retail and eventually, not my husband, we decided to launch our own speaking and training company.

Andrea Waltz: 02:50

And at that time, it was to work with retailers, large companies on their sales, customer service management, you know, managing the sales floor, that type of thing. And so we, yeah, we we launched that and, we had a very, very rocky start the 1st few months, but eventually got one big client and that helped us land a few other clients, and we were on our way. And of everything that we would teach and of everything that we would talk about, and sometimes we would get hired to do short programs, but sometimes 8 hour sessions, 4 hour sessions. Go for no, this idea of go for no would be one of the things that we talk about, and, eventually, it became the thing that everyone loved.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 03:35

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 03:35

And so we realized that we had something that was a, solution to a really important problem, which was people didn't like to fail. They didn't like to be rejected. They didn't like the word no. And that it was so much more than retail. It was anyone in sales, everyone in sales.

Andrea Waltz: 03:52

And so, we ended up writing the book. And then kind of from there started to expand the business to where we no longer just work with retailers. We work with anyone who has who who wants their sales force, their sales team to get better overcoming the word no.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 04:10

Yeah. Fantastic. It's a amazing story of of, you know, how you were born. But just going back on that, because a lot of people, you know, when you hear no, I mean and you you talk about this in your book, where where from an early age, you know, we we we constantly ask them. We we get used to hearing no.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 04:29

Right? But, you know, and I think you you referred to it as, can I have the cookie mom? Can I have the cookie mom? And she kept saying no until she finally gave in. But, the persistence that kids use, because I've got kids and I and even at, you know, my daughter's 17, they they still ask me a number of times when I say no.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 04:46

But, they're persistent. And then as we get older, we noticed that, you know, my kids will ask 10 times. But then as people get older, they ask once, they hear no, and and then they don't ask at all because they fear hearing that no. Help us understand sort of, you know, what impacts people or conditions them to fear no so much.

Andrea Waltz: 05:11

Yeah. It's an interesting phenomenon. It's a question that I get asked often. And I think a lot of it has to do with just learning to operate in a society where you don't wanna look like a pushy person. But also, there's a a thing in that has happened in the sales world, and it's a good thing.

Andrea Waltz: 05:32

But it's also, I think, had a detrimental effect. And the good thing that's happened is no one wants to be the pushy, aggressive salesperson anymore. And in order to not be perceived as that, what happens is you really end up saying, okay, well, I don't want I don't want to be perceived this way so I'm never going to accidentally step over the line. I don't want to upset anyone. And so, salespeople lose that.

Andrea Waltz: 06:00

Sometimes, they shave off the aggressiveness, which is good, but then they lose the assertiveness, which is actually a good quality and they lose that persistence. And so, I think it's natural for all of us as we as we age and we kind of lose our childishness, like, when we're kids. Right? Yeah. It's like, I'm gonna get what I'm gonna get this from my mom and dad, whatever it takes.

Andrea Waltz: 06:21

I don't care. I'm just gonna hound them until the end of time. And we lose that persistence, which is reasonable because we don't wanna be spoiled brats. But then from a selling standpoint, we have to remember that that assertiveness is still really important.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 06:34

Yeah. And was there a moment in your career where you struggled to embrace the no? Or or you struggle with that term, with with rejection?

Andrea Waltz: 06:45

Actually, the funny thing is I didn't realize that I had a problem with no until Richard told me the main story in the book Go For No, which is a story about how he was working at a men's clothing store and his sales were not that great and he was trying to impress the district manager. And he had this great sale And it was like $1100. And then the district manager asked him, you know, after he had this great sale, what did that customer say no to? And Richard said, what do you mean? I just had this fabulous sale.

Andrea Waltz: 07:16

The customer bought everything I showed him. What are you talking about? And then, the district manager said, Yeah, what did he say no to? And then Richard had to admit he didn't say no to anything. He said everything I showed that man he purchased.

Andrea Waltz: 07:29

And then the really important question he got asked next was, well, then how did you know he was done? Because you never heard no, right? And so, he, Richard had this, that story is in the book and it's actually something that happened to him when he was selling suits for a living and it was what got him on this go for no path. So, when we ended up working together, he told me that story. And I thought at that time that I had no fear of the word no.

Andrea Waltz: 08:00

In fact, I thought I was a superstar salesperson, a great salesperson who customers loved and I was very good. But I then had to get honest and think about it and think, you know what? I really don't like to hear the word no.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 08:16

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 08:16

I'm I am really good with people. I do have that ability to connect, but I was fearing looking pushy. I would get the first yes and kind of be like, Okay, great. Let's, you know, finish the sale here. I don't want to lose my yes.

Andrea Waltz: 08:32

I wanna I wanna I wanna close this deal now while I still have it and I don't wanna look pushy and blah blah blah. So I had my own challenges to overcome. And when I started applying Go For No to my job, I got so much better because I just started asking better questions and then and actually asking for, you know, selling more, selling more selling more products, basically. And, it became I I realized that I was actually not serving the customer, that I was really serving myself Yeah. By not being, like, truly an authentic salesperson saying, hey, here are all the options and take them or leave them.

Andrea Waltz: 09:17

But I wanna make sure that you know about these and let the customer say no to me rather than me saying no for them.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 09:25

Yeah. Okay. It's a really interesting concept, isn't it? And just Yeah. And just on that is because I know that this is a really interesting conversation, right, because I I survey a lot of high performing salespeople in in different industries.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 09:39

And the one of the common theme or common responses or things that I I learned is that high performers are persistent. High performers, you know, have that attitude that they're they're willing to do what others aren't. They're willing to to go that extra mile. And you know what that means? Get more noes, they get more noes.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 10:01

But is in your opinion I mean, because there's this old I don't wanna be persistent. I don't wanna come across slimy, pushy, etcetera. But, essentially, as a as a sales professional, our role is to help the customer through the buying process and get them to a point of decision. Right? So Mhmm.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 10:20

If we have that challenge that we don't want to get no or we've is it is it the no that's the issue or is it that their mindset about their role and, you know, what what what if what an actual sales professional actually does?

Andrea Waltz: 10:37

Mhmm. Yeah. I think I think it can be both. But you're right. If you're not looking at, say, at your role as a salesperson in the right way, then, that can hinder you.

Andrea Waltz: 10:50

Because I think and and this could be a really deep seated belief. Just like people have negative beliefs about money or they have negative beliefs about, you know, all kinds of things. And if you believe deep down inside somewhere that sales is bad and that ultimately sales is just manipulative and it's just about talking people into things, then and and you kind of forgot about that, but that's, like, that deep rooted belief, then, yeah, you're gonna have problems.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 11:16

It's really one that I've I've I've given a lot of thought, especially after, you know, reading your book. I think it was a it's a it's a great book. It's got some really good stories in it. So so in your career, you were always sort of embracing the word no. Was there a time when you were finding it having a negative impact on you or your confidence?

Luigi Prestinenzi: 11:39

So

Andrea Waltz: 11:40

yeah. And and first of all, the this something that Richard and I always tell people is we could have never neither one of us could have written or could speak about go for no if we had no fear of no. If we had no fear of rejection.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 11:57

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 11:57

You know, we we we could we could never because it the answer would be, well, it's easy. Just get over it. Yeah. Yeah. Don't let it don't let it stop you.

Andrea Waltz: 12:06

Like, what's your problem? That would be the extent of our training. And so as 2 people who have these issues, I have been a work in progress on this from the beginning. And I think it's taken me there's been different pieces that I've worked on, like, for example, for for one thing, not taking no personally. That was a really big one.

Andrea Waltz: 12:30

The second one was, the second piece that I spent a lot of time working on myself was just not looking for validation from people saying yes or no. Like if I got the yes, then I was a good salesperson. And if I got a no, I was somehow bad. I that I think that looking for that personal validation, I had to distance myself and step back and go, like, okay. It's not about me, but maybe I'm going after the wrong target prospects.

Andrea Waltz: 12:59

Maybe I need to change up the offer. Maybe I need to look at how I'm approaching people. And so, it really, personally detaching. So, I've had to do a lot of work myself. So, when you ask, like, have there been times throughout my career?

Andrea Waltz: 13:14

Yes. Constantly. Because

Luigi Prestinenzi: 13:16

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 13:16

This is like a constant work in progress for me. And and now I've gotten to the point where, I do really like to hear no. I like that I've, when I can get a sale and move it, move it so far down the line to where I finally get a decision and it's a yes, that's great. If it's a no, that's great. But if I can get a decision, I think that's always great.

Andrea Waltz: 13:43

I think getting the decisions from from prospects these days or customers is the hardest thing.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 13:50

Yeah. And you're so right. I think there's so much data out there to say that one one of the biggest challenges, one of the biggest objections we get from customers is, is just no decision. And and that's having an impact on on performance.

Andrea Waltz: 14:03

Oh, absolutely. And and then at least with the no, if you can get the no, and I was talking with Mark Hunter about this, who was at Outbound as well, and how you have to value no and how no gives you so much information in terms of, you know, the direction that you can go and maybe backing up and saying, okay, what did I what did I not explain? Where's the miscommunication? And or just, is this a timing issue? Which obviously that's another really big thing that I see is just timing.

Andrea Waltz: 14:39

Right? Sales is so so much timing.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 14:41

Absolutely. And so, I'm hearing it. There's a couple of things I'm learning from this and, it's not just about getting the no, but it's actually about learning the intent of the no. So if the customer if we get to point of decision and the customer says no, then the reflection that we must have is either, you know, identify, like, is it timing issue? Is it is it we're speaking to the wrong prospect?

Luigi Prestinenzi: 15:02

Is it the wrong fit? Mhmm. There's so much opportunity to learn from those noes. And, I mean, how is that something that you also learned through this process?

Andrea Waltz: 15:14

Oh, definitely. Yeah. Because it's and it's funny because sometimes there's so many things that it's easy to misconstrue when you hear the word go for no. And and over the years, people have said, so go for no's like a numbers game. It's just get as many no's as you can, and eventually, you'll get a yes.

Andrea Waltz: 15:33

And that is, like, the most simplistic way to describe it, and I don't like that for a few different reasons. Even though even though there's a part of it that's true. Right? There's a part of it where, yes, if you're not calling on enough people, then you're not gonna get you're you're not gonna fill the pipeline. You're not gonna have enough opportunities.

Andrea Waltz: 15:54

You're not gonna get you're not gonna move the sale through the process. So that numbers game is important, but it the other piece of it is that you have to be going for no intelligently. And it was funny because I remember one time, doing the conference call and somebody and we we do work with so many different organizations, and this was like a direct sales, direct, network marketing business. And this guy was like, yeah. I just I was just going for now.

Andrea Waltz: 16:25

I was just talking to everybody I could at the gas station.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 16:28

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 16:28

And I'm like I said, okay. Well, there's a couple problems with that because you're make you're trying to make the numbers, you know, that's just the numbers game thing. Right? So you can't follow-up with any of the people that told you no. You have no idea why they told you no.

Andrea Waltz: 16:43

It was probably bad timing. You have no idea who the prospects are. I mean, there's just all kinds of problems with that. So if we can go for no intelligently, that's the way to do it.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 16:53

Absolutely. You know, it's I think it's one thing going I'm getting lots of no's from a spray and hope model versus I'm very targeted in in in who I'm talking to, and I'm getting no's because I can get a learning off that. I can't get a learning off a spray and hope model. Right.

Andrea Waltz: 17:08

Spray and hope. Yes. Exactly.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 17:10

And it's funny because when I had when I had my best ever year, when I won all the awards in the company I was at, well, I don't think my my conversion was terrible, but, I got a lot of noes. And, but, you know, I think it was the noes that led me to the to the success that I had. And I often say that to salespeople. It's it's okay to get the nose. It's okay to get them to a point of decision and and get known.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 17:34

As long as it's a no where it's not a stall, where there's no uncomfortable tension between you and them. It's not that they trust you. It's it's genuinely, you know what? It's just not the right time or or or there's a few different things. Mhmm.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 17:46

And you can't handle the rejection. It's okay. You know, it's okay to get that rejection because it's some to some extent, we can't control the what the customer's decision. And this is where I'm a big believer that a difference between a sales professional. I love that Larry Levine, you know, talks about empty suit models.

Andrea Waltz: 18:05

Mhmm.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 18:06

It's not about persuasion. It's not about tricking or manipulating. Is Mhmm. We cannot control if the customer says no. I can only control what I position, the value narrative, how the relationship I develop That's

Andrea Waltz: 18:20

why we control control. Yeah.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 18:23

Absolutely.

Andrea Waltz: 18:24

Sorry. I didn't mean to talk

Luigi Prestinenzi: 18:27

over you. No. No. That's okay. That's okay.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 18:27

I just I get really passionate about this particular subject because I keep getting there's a lot of stuff coming up on my feed at the moment, which is about, you know, selling is about persuasion and and and, you know, that completely for me, that's completely wrong. That's, giving our industry a real bad name. One of the things I'd love to, you know, talk a bit more about from your book is the 5 failure levels. And, if you can help us, it was just expand on that.

Andrea Waltz: 18:52

Yeah. Yeah. So the fine failure, it's kind of funny because people, we talk a lot about failure in the book, especially in the beginning, because we want people to understand that a no is not a failure. So we try to kind of change people's mindset around, hey. Failure is not bad.

Andrea Waltz: 19:07

Failure is part of the way to get to yes. So you you have to kind you have to fail your way to success. And the 5 failure levels, yeah, are a part of that. And, level 1 is called the ability to fail and it's where everyone starts and that is one 100% of the people have the ability to fail. Now, interestingly, that's a sometimes that's all people wanna do is they have the ability, but they they failure is not an option.

Andrea Waltz: 19:31

Like, they don't wanna fail. They're terrified of it. They see it as a negative. Level 2, though, is the interesting level where you have the willingness to fail. And that's where you have somebody who is, says, I'm willing to hear no in my pursuit of yes, I'm willing to.

Andrea Waltz: 19:50

And, usually a fairly high percentage of people can get here. The next level, though, is the really powerful one and that's called the wantingness to fail. And the wantingness to fail is where you really embrace the idea of go for no. Where you say, I tried to get 10 noes this week. I only got 9.

Andrea Waltz: 20:14

I did not reach my goal. I'm not happy. Right? Which is so counterintuitive to most, most of us taught in sales. We say like, we wanna get 3 yeses this week.

Andrea Waltz: 20:24

And if we did, that's all that matters. You know? So the wantingness is really about pushing outside of the typical, boundary and to set an interesting no goal, which I know we'll talk about And

Luigi Prestinenzi: 20:36

then Can I can I just pause on that level 3? This is really interesting. Right? This is something that I I've had I've had a bit of not challenge, but, you know, after reading your book and hearing your awesome, keynote at Outbound, like, if I look back at all my books, you know, Paul J. Meyer and Jim Rohn and and and, you know, even the the likes of Bill Nighynga.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 20:58

Now now, yes, they talk about, you know, failures as a step towards success. And and maybe on it's my interpretation, but it's all about manifesting positivity. You know, we visualize anything you can vividly imagine, utterly desire. We used to listen to Paul Jaymeyer say that so much. And they talk about manifesting and and and thinking about the positive outcome that you're looking to achieve.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 21:17

Right?

Andrea Waltz: 21:17

Mhmm.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 21:18

And am I reading this, that level 3, is that going against the grain of, you know, that visualization of positiveness is?

Andrea Waltz: 21:28

Oh, yeah. That's so that's a great question. And, no, you you have to kind of, it's easy to to maybe feel that way. And that's why I always say that you're you're not wishing, hoping, or praying for a no. But what you want to what you want to achieve is you wanna get out there and have the activity.

Andrea Waltz: 21:48

And so it really it's it's not about, expecting a no, which would be like planting a seed almost in your mind and and maybe even subconsciously sabotaging, which we certainly don't wanna do. Right? But it's about the acceptance of the no. And, the acceptance is is in alignment with that idea of wanting and saying I want to get to that level where I made I've tried so many opportune have so many opportunities that I got this many noes without without the sabotage. Right?

Andrea Waltz: 22:28

So, yeah, it's taking a negative reality, but making it as positive as possible.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 22:34

Okay. Interesting. Because I think in your book, you said, you know, fewer than 5% of all people ever get to level 3.

Andrea Waltz: 22:41

Right. It's a hard it's a hard thing to maintain Yeah. Because it really pushes you out of the traditional yes goal model, and you're constantly saying and this is very much in alignment with Jeb's, you know, Jeb wants, one more call philosophy. Yeah. You know, just that one more call, that one more call.

Andrea Waltz: 23:01

What what would happen if you said on a the end of the week, you said, I heard 9 noes and I'm gonna call that one customer who I I think he will say no, but I don't know. I'm just gonna make the call one more call and see what happens. Oftentimes, it turns into a yes and then you're shocked.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 23:20

I mean, it's like in your in the in the early parts of the book where they, you know, the story of him going, going, well, I've got my 3 sales on a Monday. So now I can do paperwork on the Tuesday, and I can go play golf, and then it all goes, you know, goes pear shaped. Right. Yeah. So okay.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 23:35

So that's that's that willingness to fail. And then number 4 is failing bigger and faster.

Andrea Waltz: 23:41

Faster. Yes. And failing bigger to me is so much fun because this is where we talk about getting big noes, and and that's about hearing those, going after those big scary clients, those big scary prospects that maybe you feel like are out of your league. Those are the big noes, and the and the failing faster. So it that is the that is the speed.

Andrea Waltz: 24:04

And again, you know, from an outbound perspective, you know, the, all of the guys who run the outbound are all about let's fill the pipeline, let's get more opportunities going. And so that's that failing faster idea. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 24:22

So failing and that's a fun one just because sometimes we just assume, well, they're just gonna say no. There's no way this company is gonna even let me in their door. There's no way I'm gonna even get an appointment. Well, hang on. Let's go for it.

Andrea Waltz: 24:35

Right? Let's get a big no. Well, how amazing would that be if you if you got that no, or if you got that yes. So it gets really exciting. And then level 5 is failing exponentially.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 24:48

Yep.

Andrea Waltz: 24:50

And that is team failure. So that is very simple. If individual can go for no and get success, then teams can go for no and, fail together and ideally achieve their goals as well.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 25:04

Yeah. That's fantastic. So level you know, the 5 failure levels. And, you've seen people successfully go through all 5 and really, you know, it's elevated their success?

Andrea Waltz: 25:15

Yeah. And and what's funny is you can kind of bop around a a little bit. And I most people who hear us speak or they read the book get to willingness very quickly because they have this epiphany and they say, oh, I get it. I'm gonna try it. The jump from willingness to wanting this is more difficult because that takes a lot of reprogramming kind of that past that past mindset.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 25:40

That that's actually where I'm at. I've gone

Andrea Waltz: 25:43

That's where you're at.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 25:43

You know, I'm okay to fail, like, you know, I talk about, a mindset, you know, when I when I start my programs and I I say, you know, look at the Howard Schultz from Starbucks and how much rejection he went through. There's so many stories of people over time that endured constant, let down and failure before they achieved success. Right? And there's a story that Paul j Meyer talks about when, you know, show selling insurance when he's living in his caravan. And, he said he failed every day and people said, mate, why are you still selling it?

Luigi Prestinenzi: 26:12

He goes, because I'm the best, I'm the best insurance salesperson in the world. Because he, you know, and he was he was embracing that. But I've gone from I'm okay to fail, like, I've had some big fails. And I think, you know, if I look at failing exponentially or or or level 4, like, I've experienced that. But I'm sitting here going, I wanna embrace this concept even further.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 26:33

And I'm I I think I'm getting stuck at level 3.

Andrea Waltz: 26:37

Mhmm.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 26:37

How how I mean, if you were to give me any coaching, what what could I do to to break down so that I could really, you know, go to that wanting just to fail? Because it's going against my grain of being positive and manifesting and and and going to every call going, no. This is gonna be the outcome that's gonna give me, you know so how do I embrace level 3?

Andrea Waltz: 26:58

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, the best thing to do is really look at this. Not level 3 is less about just mindset.

Andrea Waltz: 27:07

It's far I think level 3 is more tactical. Like, level 2 is more about changing your mindset. Level 3 is really, again, tactical. And so I would say to you, you, all of us have go for no moments in our business. And so without knowing, exactly how you might apply, apply this, let's say that you, were on the phone with a prospect and you said to them, okay.

Andrea Waltz: 27:35

So you'd like to go ahead and go forward. And they said, yes. And you go, great. And you can think of a couple other things that you would also like from this person in this moment. And maybe one is a referral or maybe one is you'd like to have them also, buy some kind of extra package that you just sold with the first package.

Andrea Waltz: 27:58

And so instead though, you say, okay, well, great. I'm gonna go ahead and send you a contract over and we'll get started and, and you hung up the phone. So in that moment, you should be saying, I want to fail and I didn't. I wanted to hear no and instead of instead of letting, instead of me asking for those couple things from that person that I wanted right then, I didn't.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 28:23

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 28:24

And so it's that, it's in those moments where you have those go for no moments to say, I want to see what happens.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 28:31

Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 28:32

And so it's that it's that wantingness to fail. Now, if you get a yes, that's ultimately what we want. So don't so don't confuse that with with ultra, the ultimate result. Yes. Is the destination knows how you get there.

Andrea Waltz: 28:44

So you want to do the best thing possible, but it's that wanting this to, to try, that wantingness to fail. And when you have the wantingness to fail, that's when the success comes. It's not, not that, it's not that you're trying to sabotage or have the outcome not go the way you want, but it's understanding that the success is right on the other side if you want to fail often enough.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 29:10

Okay. Fantastic. Yeah. So I I get that. I get that.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 29:12

That's actually a really good explanation. So I appreciate you you coaching me through that. Absolutely. When you were talking it out, Bill, one of the things that you spoke about was, actually setting no goals. It's something you do with your team is around, you know, setting the science of setting no goals.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 29:29

Do you mind expanding on that for us, please?

Andrea Waltz: 29:32

Right. Right. So the science of setting no goals really and and we don't prescribe to tell anyone what their no goal should be, but the the basic example of it is to take your yes goal and to reverse engineer it and to figure out how many no's you would need, instead. So for example, right, if you said, I I just want one no today and or excuse me, one yesterday. I wanna close one make one appointment or one get one yes.

Andrea Waltz: 30:03

And you generally speaking, you know that in order to do that, you have to hear 10 noes. So you would have a no goal of, say, 10 for the day in order to get that one. Yes. But to flip it around, maybe you would say, instead of 10, I'm gonna try to get 15 nos and I'm not gonna stop even if I get that one. Yes.

Andrea Waltz: 30:24

Which was my original goal. And that's what we all tend to do with yes goals is as soon as we hit that yes goal, we stop. So it's focusing on the no goal instead of worrying about the yes goal. So for example, if, if I said, we do need to get one yes today and you picked up the phone and you got your one yes, you might be done calling for the whole day. And then instead I said, no, I want you to get 15 no's.

Andrea Waltz: 30:52

And along the way, if you get some yeses, great. But I don't care how many yeses you get, you need to get 15 noes. It could take you all day.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 31:00

Yep.

Andrea Waltz: 31:00

If you get 2 or 3 yeses, you can't stop. You you have to keep going through your noes. And that's the fun thing about no goals is it's really about keeping you in activity and in action even if you get the yeses that you want.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 31:14

Fantastic. So and then you monitor them just like any other goal. Right?

Andrea Waltz: 31:20

And then you track them like any other goal. Yeah. And it's it's designed to be fun and and to kind of see what's possible because we we find that, you know, with sales people and people in general, I mean, and it's human nature that when we sometimes, and this goes to, to sales quotas of all kind, The quota sometimes can limit our performance if we're able to meet it easily. Now, sometimes the quotas are really hard and and and we're not in danger of hitting them at all. No goals can help with that as well.

Andrea Waltz: 31:54

But if the quotas are easily reached, then it's time to to set no goals and to see how many noes can you get and then how many yeses will that end up giving you?

Luigi Prestinenzi: 32:06

Yeah. It's such a such an interesting and it's something like, I'm not sure, if you heard of Ali Reda, but he's a car salesman in the US that completely smashed the world record. And I think he he got like did something like 1500 car sales, which was ridiculous. Yeah. And, one of the things that he speaks about is that, know, when he went for his training, like the manufacturer training, they're saying, well, you know, expect to do the highest do like 3 to 400 cars.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 32:33

And he's saying, well, why? Like and so he just said out on a on a journey to sort of break that. And he said that's sort of a self limiting belief if that you're telling us it's 3 to 400. And he completely went and smashed it. And I see that all the time.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 32:48

I see sales people, you know, oh, if you just got to get one more, and I'm like, well, you're 2 weeks into that. I've got a client last week. I I looked at us, but 2 weeks into the month, you're already nearly at your target. But because they they see they're almost there, they completely back off. And then you see all the sub metrics that that support their score is just gone down.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 33:10

And so the rhythm that they were having slows down, and then their performance slows down. But guess what? They were happy because they hit their target.

Andrea Waltz: 33:18

Absolutely. And I think those numbers can be psychological hindrances for anything. I mean, we saw this back when, like, the last, company that both Richard and I worked for. It's like, you find out, okay, this is the average sale, the average dollar sale. So everyone kind of hits that average.

Andrea Waltz: 33:40

And this is the average number of units. And this is this and this is that. And when those when people start to know the numbers, they they perform to the numbers. It's weird. Right?

Andrea Waltz: 33:50

And they don't, we had we we were doing go for no training with a young woman who was very new to the company, and that naivete is like the best for salespeople because she had no preconceived notion and she ended up selling like 15 units. And everyone was like, that's crazy. How did she do that? Well, she wasn't she didn't know that the average was 2.4. Yes.

Andrea Waltz: 34:17

That's right. Yeah. That's the first thing.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 34:20

Yeah. I love it. I love the best salespeople or the best sales professionals is the one that never never sold before because they've got no baggage and they've got no preconceived ideas on what they can or can't do. So that's awesome. Right.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 34:30

So just wanna take it back. So, just a couple of quick tips for anyone listening to this going, you know, I'm I'm still I'm still struggling with the concepts. What are some really quick tips, that people can sort of implement that breaks down the fear of hearing no?

Andrea Waltz: 34:45

Yeah. Well, the first thing I would say is just start to create a no awareness, for yourself. Yep. And kind of like I did in where I had to be honest with myself. And it's hard because with salespeople in general, we're people, people, and we do like to be liked and, and all of that.

Andrea Waltz: 35:05

So we have our own ego baggage and and stuff. But to be just kind of take a honest look at your no awareness, and are you hearing noes? And if so, how many? And I would say create a baseline. Like, take a couple weeks and start tracking and saying, this is when I hear no, or I don't hear no at all.

Andrea Waltz: 35:25

And why is that? And then start to change that by setting a very small, easy to achieve, no goal. Just just something very simple. And that, I think, really helps people ease into this philosophy is just taking it very, being very methodical and very, very basic. And it's funny because sometimes people will hear this, and they get so enthusiastic, and they come to me and they say, I'm getting a 100 no's.

Andrea Waltz: 35:56

I'm like, listen. I know you're enthusiastic. That's great. But that you're it doesn't even almost matter what industry, Luigi, because it does it's that is so difficult because half the time, we can't get a hold of people. Yeah.

Andrea Waltz: 36:08

And right? And these are these are not just like, oh, I called and left a voice mail. It's a no. I mean, that is not a no. Right?

Andrea Waltz: 36:15

This is like actual people saying, no, I don't wanna meet with you, or the I looked at your proposal and the answer is no. I mean, these are good noes. So this is not easy to do. And I always have to caution people, like, don't go crazy. You don't have to get a 100 no's today.

Andrea Waltz: 36:32

That you don't have to go crazy. Just start creating a no awareness and and being honest and saying, are you shying away from opportunities? Where are your and and, where are your go for no moments? List Yeah. You know, write out in your entire sales process.

Andrea Waltz: 36:50

Where are all the moments where you have the opportunity to ask, And where you have these moments where it's like, I need to ask for the appointment. I need to ask for this. I need to ask for that. Those are all the go for no moments, and pay attention to are you executing on those.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 37:05

Fantastic. Some solid advice there. And just wanna know from your perspective, obviously, you know, you've trained, you know, hundreds of people in this concept, but biggest influence in your career and why?

Andrea Waltz: 37:22

So the biggest influence for me, and it very much has to do with Go For No, was a book called The Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 37:30

Yep.

Andrea Waltz: 37:31

And, yeah, great book. And it he talks about, communicating with integrity and, one of the one of or am I screwing up the agree agreements? I'm forgetting the first agreement. I know integrity integrity is in there. But not taking things personally is one of the agreements.

Andrea Waltz: 37:50

And, and, well, let's see, not taking things personally and not making assumptions. Sorry. Those are 2 of the 4 that really impacted me the most. And I probably read and referenced that book just repeatedly for like 2 years. I just would open it up and just reread.

Andrea Waltz: 38:09

I even got the, the, he had these flashcards created where they were beautiful cards with pictures, and it would have just the key points from the book. That book, really goes hand in hand with gopher no because of the idea of not trying to not not taking that no and that rejection personally. So that helped me when I was getting over that even as I was teaching go for no.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 38:36

Oh, fantastic. Well, I've just I've I've got another book to buy from Amazon this today, so I'll be jumping on that after this. And in your opinion, I I I like to ask all my guests this question. Is sales, is it an art or a science?

Andrea Waltz: 38:50

Oh, my gosh. I love that question. And I you're gonna kill me because I have to say it's both. I have to say it's both. I love the science part of it.

Andrea Waltz: 39:01

Yeah. And I think that to the to the, I think the best salespeople take what I believe is ultimately a very artistic process and they put science to it.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 39:12

Yep.

Andrea Waltz: 39:12

So they they take and they figure out what is what is the scripting that works the best.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 39:18

Absolutely.

Andrea Waltz: 39:18

Yeah. But they right? But they always leave but they don't make it so stilted that they are not a person. Yeah. And they allow their authenticity and their personality to shine through, and that's the art of it.

Andrea Waltz: 39:31

And I think, ultimately, the most successful salespeople love the game of sales. Yeah. I think they love just the thrill of getting an opportunity and seeing like, how can I help this person and communicate with this person in such a way that it helps them, it helps them make the right decision? And it's just a fun profession because I think salespeople are people people, and that's that is art.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 40:00

Absolutely. I get I get such mixed responses to that question. Mark Hunter, you know, he's No. It's it's an art. And, and I've had others that say, no, it's a science, you know.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 40:09

We know how many times we can call them. And, and and, you know, I I I feel both, but I'm a believer that the data looking at scripts, yes, that can help me. But at the end of the day, is the conversation that I have with the customer. For me, that's a craft. It's something that I find that I can refine it.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 40:28

I can get better at it. And, you know, and that's where the art comes from, you know, like an elite athlete. The more I train, the better I get. The better I get, the better I can perform. So that's why I love that question.

Andrea Waltz: 40:41

I love that. I love that so much. And I'm sorry I didn't mean to cut you off. No. That's okay.

Andrea Waltz: 40:45

And and it's such a fun question because, too, I think that you never know You can't no sales black and white. No sale is easy. No sale is every every person is different, and that's that's why from the science standpoint, yeah, there's so much data and there's so much way that you can make it scientific. But, ultimately, you just, it's all new. Like, every time you're just doing it's a new person, and it's gonna be the conversation's gonna go just slightly different.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 41:13

Absolutely. And you know, like, I had I was testing a lead source for a client last week, and I pride myself on my ability, especially in the inside sales model to convert really high. And I had tested, you know, 10 new inbound leads. And after 10 calls, I hadn't converted 1. And I'm like, have I lost?

Luigi Prestinenzi: 41:35

Is all of a sudden my capability my ability here? And it wasn't until I reflected and I'm like, well, hang on a second. I'm actually not in the zone. Like, I'm just going through the motions, and I'm not providing my and I had to just stop, recalibrate, and go not just that, but each customer is different. And so, you know, I could have been, mediocre and gone, no.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 42:05

No. I'm gonna keep doing what I'm doing because I'll finally get the result, but or I could have altered my approach, recalibrated, repositioned, changed my mindset. And then the next 10, I got the outcome that I was looking for. And I think that's that, you know, that, that I see quite a lot is that's a difference between high performing sales professionals and mediocre sales professionals. It's the ones that will stop and reflect and go, I need to change.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 42:34

I need to, you know, I need to go back into the afternoon. I need to go back in the gym. I need to do a bit more strength work. I need to focus on my food, sleep, whatever it is. But all those 1 percenters that help them improve their fitness.

Andrea Waltz: 42:46

Mhmm. I see. I love that. I so agree. Yeah.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 42:48

Yeah. This has been fantastic. So, look, I I really enjoyed our conversation today. And before we, finish up, are you able to share with us and our listeners where they can find a bit more about you, or engage with you after this podcast?

Andrea Waltz: 43:02

Yeah. I would love to hear from people. So it's go for no.com@goforno.com.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 43:08

Okay. And for anyone who engages Andrea, please, if you get no, don't take it personal.

Andrea Waltz: 43:16

That's right. But I will be nice. I will say yes.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 43:18

No worries. And we'll we'll put some stuff in the show notes where they can get your book as well. So, look, I really appreciate, after, you know, hearing you at Outbound and reading your book, I'm looking forward to watching that movie. I just wanted to say thank you for for, you know, your contribution to our to our profession.

Andrea Waltz: 43:35

Absolutely. Thank you so much as well. This was so much fun.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 43:38

No worries. Bang. Sticks and stones may break my bones, but no, can never hurt me. Andrea brought it and did she bring it? Andrea, what I loved about listening to Andrea is that this is not just someone that's decided to write a book based on a concept.

Luigi Prestinenzi: 43:58

It's something that, in her own business, it's a concept and philosophy that she implements every single day. It's concepts that, you know, they set targets for themselves around how many nodes they're gonna get in any given day. So my challenge to you this week is how many nodes are you prepared to get? How many nodes are you prepared to challenge yourself to get so that you can be the best sales professional you can be?