#239: The Art of Influence: Reframing Narratives for Complex B2B Sales Success
In this episode, you're gonna learn the difference between a story and a narrative, how to create a narrative to influence the buying committee, and where AI fits into the process. Welcome back to another episode of the How to Sell podcast. I'm your host, Luigi Prestonenzi. And as always, I'm pumped and honored that you've joined us for what will be a very interesting session. But before we introduce this week's guest, I just wanna say if you're a long time listener, thank you for showing up each and every week and contributing to our community.
Luigi:And if you're a first time listener, we hope you take away some actionable insights that'll help you sell more. Now the reason why I'm so excited, because this week's guest is gonna help me create the narrative
Dave:Why why are you just pumped? Why are you just excited? You're very singular in it. It's we. We're pumped.
Dave:We're excited. You're you're very
Luigi:Well, yeah. Look look. For me, Dave, you know, I haven't never really embraced you as being my cohost on this podcast. You know? It's like Really?
Luigi:Because I keep people keep telling me that only show up because they wanna hear my voice
Michael:and not your voice.
Dave:Well, I just wanna thank Melissa for today on the call. She stood up for me and actually, she had some concern about the bullying tactics that, you're all in good shape.
Luigi:So just to give some context to those of you that don't that are not part of the growth forum community, we come together each and every week. We have people from all over the world join our calls. And it always starts in a great way where we're kind of we're roasting. Eyes out of each other. Yeah.
Luigi:Love that. And the voice that you've just heard is our incredible guest who's joining us, and he's gonna talk a bit about not just stories, but narrative. Michael, welcome to the How TO Sell podcast.
Michael:Thank you, guys. It's great
Luigi:to be here. Yeah. And I I and just before you know what? Before we jump into the episode, you did say a very Aussie thing, which is taking the piss. Where did you learn that phrase?
Michael:Well, so I think I was I was telling you guys this when we were catching up the other day. In 2015, I sold 90% of everything I owned. I lived out of 2 carry on bags for 500 days around the world. I went digital nomad, and I went on a story world tour. So I I I spoke and taught and lived in 15 countries.
Michael:And during that time, actually, I spent a lot of time down under in in both Sydney and Melbourne. And the interesting thing after that whole journey, and there's so many things that I learned during that time and and often kinda go back to it. One of the things that I learned came to the conclusion at the end of it all, there's nowhere in the world I'd rather live 365 days a year than California, but there's nowhere in the world I have more soul brothers and soul sisters than Melbourne, Australia.
Dave:Oh, wow.
Luigi:What a nice thing to say.
Dave:It's very nice.
Michael:It's the truth. So that's why I'm I'm not that's that's, I think, how David and I became such fast friends. Like, there's something about the water that you guys drink in Melbourne. Like, I'm I'm cut from the same cloth. There's there's something about worldview mindset culture.
Michael:It's one of my favorite places on Earth, but, boy, is it is it just bloody cold in the winter, and you got no insulation, and I just I can't do it. But for a season Yeah. God's country.
Luigi:Mate, yeah. We we look. We love it. But although, I must admit, Michael, I'm a big fan of California. I love it.
Luigi:I never thought I could live in the West Coast, but I spent a bit of time there. And I'm like, you know what? I could get used to this.
Michael:Yeah. I live in Los Angeles now. I used to Yep. I lived in the Bay Area for quite a while as well, and I work a lot in Silicon Valley. If you can if you LA, by the way, is very akin to Australia.
Michael:So, like, it's a really easy transition for for Aussies. The lifestyle's down here. Yeah. And then, thankfully, it's just a puddle jumper up north, and then there's a there's also quite a vibrant, you know, tech hub here in LA as well, Silicon Beach where my office is. And Yeah.
Michael:You know, things are happening here too.
Luigi:No. That's very cool. And and and maybe you could tell us. So you went on a you went on this massive tour. Yeah.
Luigi:15 countries. What sort of inspired you in the first place to get involved in stories, narratives? Talk to us a bit about that.
Michael:Yeah. So I got in the game really early. So I've no. I started my journey with storytelling and wanting to understand storytelling in 2002. So I'm 20 years in, and it came from the place, actually, my first career, right out of uni.
Michael:It was the late nineties, the birth of the Internet economy. And, I became what was called a social entrepreneur. Yep. Right? So those who may not be familiar, it's basically applying business principles to social change.
Michael:And I was working on the digital divide, which is basically who has access to technology, who doesn't. And embedded in there was poverty and race and and the fundamental notions that genius is equally distributed, but opportunity is not. Right? So I was leveling the playing field. There were half a 1000000 tech jobs going on field back then, and I was sort of at the right place at the right time.
Michael:By the age of 22, I was funded by the Ford and Rockefeller Foundation, 2 of the biggest foundations in the world. And by the age of 24, epic fail. Right? It all came crashing down and a lot of different factors involved, But it was that quarter life crisis when I was 24 back in I'm gonna age myself here, but back in, I think, 2,001 now. Right?
Michael:I'm 46 today. It was that moment of picking up the pieces and going, why is it so hard to tell the story of innovation? Right? Why do so many world changing ideas get lost in translation? And it was that riddle that I went, I wanna figure this out.
Michael:And I've just been a dog with a bone ever since.
Dave:That's interesting. And I love look, Louie, you mentioned 2 different words there. Right? So story, narrative, often confused, often mixed up. Michael, can you lay the foundation here?
Dave:What's the difference between the 2?
Michael:Yeah. So this is a critical distinction that 99% of most storytelling books, storytelling workshops, the things that you that most of of your community and listeners what you've come across around storytelling, people are not making this distinction. When you make this distinction, this is the 10 x force multiplier for influence and persuasion. So let me break it down this way. And let me, by the way, first presage by saying, look, as a general expression we say story and that's fine.
Michael:Right? Let's get our let me get my story straight. We need a story here. Right? Like, oh, what's the competing storyline?
Michael:It's all good. Use it interchangeably. Okay? I don't mean to be, you know, some some some pissy little nerd about it. But now now let's be the pissy nerd, and here's the distinction that everybody needs to understand.
Michael:And it goes like this. A story is a specific event. A story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. A story is about something that happened or a story is about something that's gonna happen, but it's a packet of information that's a closed loop. And as salespeople, you tell stories all the time.
Michael:Yep. You might tell the story of, oh, let me tell you about this cut this other client that we work with, and here's where they were at. Here's what was going on with them. Here's what was standing in their way, and then they were able to overcome that and blah blah blah. K?
Michael:Or, oh, let me tell you the story, you know, of of what of of this story of of, there's a story of, like, what is happening in the industry or in this category. Right? So we tell stories all the time. Great. Nothing wrong with stories.
Michael:The challenge is though, we are drowning in an infinite sea of stories. Why? Also because of social media. Right? Everybody has a story.
Michael:Everybody has a story worth telling. We're telling them all day long. Yeah. You know, and so on. So here's the distinction.
Michael:So if story is an anecdote, narrative is the concept. Narrative is rhetoric. Narrative is because think about it this way. Narrative actually does not have a clear beginning, middle, and end. It's an open loop.
Michael:Let me give you an example of this. And to to to the Australian contingent listening, please forgive me, but it's it's a great reference point. Let's talk about the American dream. K? So the American dream is a narrative.
Michael:Yeah. Because it's this idea or core it's a big theme that then has a few underlying concepts. So let's real quick jam on this. What are the concepts that are part of the American dream? When I say American dream, what what associations do you have?
Dave:It's like infinite opportunity.
Michael:Yeah. Right? Infinite opportunity, freedom, you know, reinvention. Doesn't matter where you come from. You come here.
Michael:You know, there's a meritocracy. Like, there's a lot of you know, for some people, it's the the the the house and the white picket fence is part of the American dream. So there's a lot of different associations. Also, in our country right now, there are debates going on around the American dream. And is it still accessible to enough people, or how do we help more people access their share of the American dream?
Michael:Yep. But across political parties and all the dysfunctions of our politics in America, the American dream still means something. Mhmm. And it means something not just in America but even around the world. Right?
Michael:So there are many I was just with with the with one of the product teams at Atlassian up in San Francisco a couple weeks ago, but they're also here doing business in America because of the American dream. Right? There's a lot of new of technology companies in Australia and other places in the world who understand if we really wanna go global, okay, part of that's the American dream. So on and on. So the American dream is this narrative or overarching concept, but now we all have our individual stories of the American dream.
Michael:Let me give you mine. My dad is a first generation immigrant who was born and raised in the bush of Africa. Wow. In what was Rhodesia at the time, today Zimbabwe, 30 miles from the border with Mozambique. And he got a Fulbright scholarship to the states, studied went to MIT, became a chemical engineer.
Michael:He actually came over on the Queen Mary and, you know, with, like, that classic story with a couple $100 in his pocket. And my dad naturalized as a US citizen in the early 19 seventies. He still gets teary eyed when the national anthem comes on. It means more to my father to be an American and the refuge of the opportunity that came from him. Because we were Eastern European Jews in the bush of Africa who basically had escaped from, you know, Eastern Europe amidst all those things and just had show you know, it was just a place where my family landed.
Luigi:Yeah.
Michael:And my for my dad to be able to go to there, to America, and the future that he built for himself and his family and so on. Right? So my dad gets more teary eyed than my mom who was born and raised in upstate New York. So that's my American dream story. Right?
Michael:That's this individualized experience and event. It's actually even my father's. Okay? But then, you know, it's connected to me. And if I were to then share more of my American dream story was growing up actually it was only when I was 9 that we moved to Los Angeles.
Michael:And but I'm absolutely an American and a proud American and so on. But even my experience of being an American has been one of, like, going from the outsider to becoming the insider. Interesting. Okay. So let me wrap this up with one last piece for everyone listening is if the narrative is a Christmas tree Yep.
Michael:Stories are the ornaments that you hang on the Christmas tree. Right? But the narrative is what frames and defines the conversation. You wanna define the narrative, control the narrative, change the narrative, reframe the narrative. And that is where the battle is truly won or lost.
Michael:And we're usually blind to the fact that things are being set or defined at the narrative level. And that's what positioning is, differentiation, you know, especially when you're trying to really, really create the POV or an angle about your company, about your product, about your service, about your niche, and so on.
Luigi:By this well, you know, there's not too many times, Michael. I've interviewed 100 of people over the number of years, But the what you've just shared with me kind of I I've had a massive light bulb go off. Right? So this, for me, this is this is worth it. Dave, even if we don't publish this because, you know, because of your ugly head, but this is absolutely worth it.
Luigi:I just wanna ask Louis,
Michael:I appreciate that, but I just want you to know. Okay? Hold on a second here. I'm team David. Alright?
Michael:I just asked. I don't know what's going on here. Whatever group therapy you guys need to sort through. I know you guys are old mates here, but I'm I'm or, you know, actually, I should say I'm team Fastuka. That sounds a lot more than team David.
Michael:I got team Fastuka. My
Luigi:stories have the ability to influence you. I'll have you on my team very soon. But hey. I actually would I would love to get your input on this because I think, you know, you people listening to this, I think this is all great. Right?
Luigi:I'm I'm hearing it. Conceptually, the narrative is a conceptual component. It's the overarching part, the positioning. But in some cases, in my role, I'm I'm an individual contributor. I'm trying to influence buying committees and business cases and there's economy happening.
Luigi:I can only control the story. Right? I'd love to sort of get your insight into if I am that person and I have an opportunity and and as we know now, mid market, I mean, you've worked at brands like Meta. Right? Huge brands.
Luigi:Atlassian, you mentioned. The data shows, you know, 9 to 15 stakeholders involved in a decision making process, and they've all got conflicting needs, priorities, and you're just trying to sell your product or service in there. How do you create that that message? How do you create that story that can help get buy in both internally and externally?
Michael:Such a great question. And what you're speaking to is exactly the reality that so many of us face, which is you are selling a complex B2B technical product or solution in a highly matrixed environment. Yeah. And what that means is there actually are lots of competing narratives colliding, in the sense of, I mean, I do a lot of work with product builders. So even just inside organizations, you talk to product versus engineering versus UX versus, you know, client or customer success and, like, version control.
Michael:Everybody's in a different version, you know, of the story or the narrative and much less the version control when you talk to executives and the narrative that they're in, which is usually 3 or 5 years ahead in the future versus all the way down to an IC and the story that they're in, you know, has an expert it's it's it's old. It's dated. They're, you know, like, they're they're still working on a story that's that, you know, that's that's that's expired, so to speak. So this is part of the challenge right now. And to use kinda technology terms, it's having a single source of truth
Luigi:Yeah.
Michael:At the narrative level so that people are singing from the same song sheet and so on. So that's the context. Now I wanna get to your question, which is, and and if you haven't picked up on this so far. Right? And and forgive me.
Michael:I've got to give the gap. So please just jump in anytime because I can just go on and on and on on this stuff. I like the sound of my own voice. Hopefully, I keep it interesting for for you and your listeners. But the but but I'm a first principles guy.
Michael:I'm a philosopher. And and this is really important with working with story because story is about making meaning. Making sense in meaning of presenting reality and making sense in meaning of aspirational reality. And that's why it has so much power and why people desperately need the stories right now. Because Mhmm.
Michael:We're all trying to make sense of, holy crap. The fundamentals are upside down. So much has changed. There's all this disruption and so on. So coming to your core question, so here's the idea that I wanna introduce and then I'm gonna I wanna hear from you guys your reaction to this.
Michael:So from a narrative perspective, one of the things that's often I'll put it to you this way. If you want to create shared agreement, Don't make your audience wrong.
Dave:Look at her.
Michael:So and actually and here's why I bring this up. So often we are unconsciously the way that we've been taught to frame sales, problem solution, actually is making our audience defensive. And let me explain this. Right? So now here's the thing.
Michael:If you're selling widgets or cupcakes or consumer packaged goods, don't listen to anything I'm saying. It doesn't freaking matter. A 30, 60 second TV spot will sell that product. It's fine. But if you're selling a complex technical B2B product or solution, what it means is you're solving for something that, 1, is an ambiguous problem space, 2, doesn't always have shared problem definition Yep.
Michael:Inside that organizational system, and 3, your audience is complicit if not responsible for the problem. And here you go coming in and going, look, there's this problem, right, which I. E. They hear you're wrong, you're bad, you're stupid, but don't worry. I have the answer.
Michael:I know exactly what we need to do to fix you or to fix this situation. And so that's a very big presumptive leap. Unless you already have that person bought in as your champion and who immediately gets it, right, you're gonna face resistance. And or your champion who totally gets it, you've built the rapport. They're working in a highly matrixed environment where they're gonna go and say, oh, here's what we need to do.
Michael:And everybody else around them are like, woah. Hold on a second. K? So let's unpack this dynamic. What do you guys think about this as a as a as a dynamic?
Michael:Kind of the way that I'm naming these distinctions of what I think is going on inside of a lot a lot of organizations today?
Luigi:This is amazing. And, David, just before we jump in, like, Michael, this is fucking amazing. I tell you why. Right? Because I've got so many so many thoughts going on.
Luigi:I'm I'm bringing it back to a deal, and I only spoke about this with Dave. Dave and I have gone to project, and I was I brought something out of my of my my archives. And I say archives because it's literally a it's it's a piece of paper. Right? And I I remember that was a business case.
Luigi:It was my first $10,000,000 deal, right, with a huge global brand. It actually had to go to New York for sign off, huge global brand. And one thing that I've just had this realization, listening to you now, the narrative in the first in the first paragraph because we wrote the business case. Right? And what's interesting about this, the business case that we wrote for change, I wrote the business case, but it had the project owner and the project sponsor was the 2 people in the business.
Luigi:Right? And at no time did I say this is your problem. We co created the scope of work. But the first paragraph, and I only re re recognize because I read it this morning and after hearing what you you were saying, the first paragraph referenced the narrative which was driven from the CEO. So the narrative was the why change piece.
Luigi:Yeah? We've referenced that. I only just picked this up, and this was 13 years ago, by the way, and you've just helped me pick this up. So the project will integrate the mission and vision set by. That's the top line.
Luigi:Right? And the rest is the story on how we're gonna get there. We just shouldn't be
Dave:cleared up.
Luigi:I've just had this massive moment.
Dave:Like, that process doesn't change. Right? And we often, look, I'm guilty of this. You think yourself as the hero that you're going to solve the problem, but unknowingly or now knowingly, because after listening to this, you should know that you may be potentially talking down on the prospects. Like you mentioned, Michael, they may be the problem within the business.
Dave:So you say that I can fix you. And if you prospect it to them and they've willingly jumped on the call, it may feel like you're attacking them in a light way. So, that is a really interesting perspective on that. And, hopefully, it helps you listening think about the way you approach that call that you have with someone, that prospect, and how you position your language and the story around that. Yeah.
Dave:But, Dave, I think the
Luigi:other thing, the reason why this is resonating with me so much much, because if I reflect upon the deals that went south, you know, it was often because I was saying, this is your problem. And I'd do I'd do a lot of research, and I'd do a lot of due diligence to say, hey. I've got something incredible for you. Like, look at this dossier of information. They're like, you know, this is a reflection of my job, mate.
Luigi:You you've basically so there's that backup behavior kicking in. And then if we look at the flip side, the deals that were just incredibly seamless were the ones where there was no relationship tension. I was enabling them through that conceptual component of saying, I can see where you wanted to go, and I've got a bit of insight on what's not happening that could enable you to get to that desired state. Right? And I think this I don't know if you've ever heard the book, Michael, The Challenger Sale.
Luigi:It's a it's a book. It's been great book. Right? And it it it created whole opposite opinion. People were like, I fucking hate it or I love it.
Luigi:And I think people misunderstood the book because the book was talking about you gotta challenge your buyer and tell them what they're doing wrong. Yeah. For me, that's not what I took away from it. Right? It was definitely not telling what they're doing wrong.
Luigi:It's sharing that level of insight to say, look at what is possible. Right? So I absolutely love this. Now just wanna build upon this. You mentioned that whole narrative, the concept, the story, etcetera.
Luigi:So if we can take it that one degree that one step further in understanding this is not just about influencing a buying committee external, but if you're also listening to this going, hey, I wanna influence internal, how can I now adapt what you've told us about creating that internal narrative to get internal buy in and and engagement?
Michael:Yeah. And this is actually an area that I spend probably 80% of our time both you know, over the last 20 years, much of my work has been professional services and and consulting to executives in the biggest tech companies, both the executive and their teams. And we've also always been teaching the methods. So and in the last year and a half, we have started productizing the IP and democratizing these methods. So this is the we we have courses that anybody listening, if you're interested, you can go check us out on Maven.
Michael:We have a course called narrative influence and, narrative change and so on. Anyways, so let's let's talk about this from the internal buy in perspective. And the so building on what we just talked about and and and you you you did a brilliant job of connecting the dots, which is what you want to do is sell the possibility, the opportunity. You wanna connect to aspiration and motivation. What's the promised land?
Michael:What's the dream? Where are people trying to get to? And then what stands in the way? So instead of problem solution, which is minus plus Yeah. You just reverse the polarity.
Michael:It's possibility obstacle. Right? It's plus minus. So when you reverse that polarity, it shifts the dynamic in how people are gonna react and respond. Exactly as you said, you become their champion, their act, their advocate, their enabler for where they're trying to get to.
Michael:And what you're doing as a salesperson, your job is to tell a love story about the future.
Dave:Oh, love that one.
Michael:Right? And when you do that, right, that's what draws people forward. Because who doesn't love a love story? Who can say no to a love story? So that's the trick metaphorically.
Dave:Just riffing off that one sentence then it's, I associate that it's been more emotion. You're having that emotion, right? Like a love story, it's emotion. So, rather thinking of just pure black and white numbers and cents, if you could pull on that emotion, okay, so what does this result gonna do for you emotionally in your career for the business? That can often help the situation a lot more.
Luigi:Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that my takeaway from that is we reference this concept a lot. Right? But it doesn't matter if you're influencing internal, external, people buy the outcome.
Luigi:Right? They buy the they they buy that ultimate aspirational outcome. And if we're able to help them see a path to get there, then they're motivated to take action. Right? It's when they are you're right.
Luigi:It's when there is that element of conflict because it's that minus negative all that, yeah, minus plus kind of concept. So for me, I'm looking down because I've literally got a page of notes on my phone here. I got messages. I'm gonna have to listen to this again and again because there's some key takeaways. There's been moments where I built my business case because I've been really big believer for the past 15 years.
Michael:Yes.
Luigi:B2b selling, you have to build a business case. A proposal is irrelevant. If the business case isn't in there, it's irrelevant. And after 15 years of doing this, I'm actually gonna have to go back into there and put put the theory behind why it works the way it does. Like, this has been a massive moment for me, mate.
Luigi:Because I'm I'm sitting there going, I can see why these work. For a while, I just thought it was a process. Now I understand there's actually some psychology behind it.
Michael:It's first principles, and it's especially so let and I wanna keep building on your point of around internal buy in and making the business case because I, I you know, and you'll notice about me. I'm I'm, sometimes I'll take the long way around. You know? It's just it's it's it's the it's the it's the blessing and the curse of being a raconteur. So, but but let's unpack this a little bit more.
Michael:And and I wanna unpack it the following way, which is, storytelling is decision making. Storytelling is a framework for decision making. If you wanna become actually better at decision making, become better at storytelling. If you wanna become better at storytelling, become better at decision making. And let me unpack this a little bit more.
Michael:Because when you are building internal buy in, when you are creating a business case, all you are doing is communicating about making decisions. Right? And the decisions that we are trying to make, boy, and here, let me give you a few examples of this. Part of the decisions, it goes like this. 1 is and this happens when you're, you know, you have an executive presentation or you're giving an you know, you're going through a quarterly business review or whatever are the different internal rituals and cadences of your organization.
Michael:Could be a town hall. You name it. So part of what you're doing in a presentation, and especially working with a lot of, product led growth type teams, I've really learned and seed in this. Right? And, you mentioned meta.
Michael:Since 2016, we've worked with 15 product and organizational divisions, building the narratives that go in front of Mark Zuckerberg and the rest of the m team. So this is a place where I really learned how to, like, build these things and see them have to perform at the 1,000,000,000 person scale at that level of complexity. K? So in that environment so here's what's going on. When you are presenting, number 1, what you're doing is, well, you're you are narrating the journey, the story of, well, these were the decisions that we made previously, and here's what happened.
Michael:Here's now the decisions that we are making or want to make, and here's what we think is gonna happen or what we think we're gonna find out by making these decisions. And then there's these other decisions downstream that we don't quite know how to make yet, But this is why the things that we're doing now or today, running these experiments or these tests, are gonna help us gather data and evidence that's gonna bring us closer to the to being able to then solve the next level decisions that are coming down the road. That's what an executive wants to hear and understand is the logic model. What decisions were made and what happened? What decisions are we making?
Michael:And what's our hypothesis and the assumptions for why we're making these decisions and what happens next? And then what are the next level decisions that are gonna get us to where we wanna get to. It's all decision making. And storytelling is a logic model. I'll offer this and then I'm gonna shut up.
Michael:I wanna hear you guys on this. So story think of this as the 3 C's of storytelling. Circumstance, right, choice, consequence. Circumstance, choice, consequence. Rinse and repeat.
Michael:So circumstance. Where are we? What's the context? Set the scene. Right?
Michael:And okay. All right. Now that I'm oriented, all right, ultimately there's a choice or a set of choices, obstacles, challenges, dilemmas, scenarios. Okay. There's choices then what happened?
Michael:Or based on that choice, what we think is gonna happen? And once you make a choice, there's a consequence. You're back at the beginning. You're in a new circumstance. It's a it's like video games.
Michael:It's the storytelling matrix of of reality or choose your own adventure book. It never ends. But this is what you are doing as an effective salesperson. You're narrating this journey around decision making. And in an environment, by the way, that is about managing risk and volatility, managing uncertainty, and in an environment where people are like, we can't fail in this environment.
Michael:So you're trying to reduce perception of risk on what is a very uncertain, like, really high like like a very high level of complexity to the the the outcomes that your customer or stakeholders are trying to achieve. And it's your job to be the guide that can take them through the desert and get them to
Luigi:the promised land. Right. This is so powerful because you're absolutely right. That element of choice like, I'm looking at those 3 c's, and you're right. Like, even when people don't wanna make that choice to move forward, it's our role to then help them say, okay.
Luigi:What would be the consequence of that action? Is what's the cost of inaction? Great. Like, are you okay with what that choice could represent for you in 6 to 12 months? How does that get you closer to your narrative?
Luigi:Yeah. And I again, for me, I'm not meaning to pump your tires, but this is amazing. Like, this this this this this content's incredible.
Dave:Can that become a little bit condescending, right, in relation to Can that become condescending? When you're talking to someone and they they bit unsure, right, and they're thinking, do I do this? Do I not? And then you're you're challenging them, right, which could put them on the back foot or say, so what do you so what's gonna happen if you don't do nothing? You almost like yeah.
Dave:Depending on your tonality, this cannot come across aggressive. You know? You gotta be careful there, I think.
Luigi:Yeah. But I don't think it's a matter of going, you know, that question. I actually wanna flip that and ask to consider the impact. Like, consider the impact of what this could what this choice could mean for the business. Like, getting them because the best way for me, from a sales perspective, is not to tell them the answer, is get them to think.
Luigi:Mhmm. Right? So the minute they start thinking that, I'm like, well, we haven't really thought about that. We're not prepared. Like, you just said it, Michael, you know, that that risk that we're not prepared to fail.
Luigi:This is not something that we've been thinking about. So maybe we now need to think about the choices we're about to make, because it could mean this could become a risk. Exactly.
Michael:David, I think you're bringing up a really great point, and it's it's a critical one, which is all about intention that then is reflected or we hear in tonality. And and that they're you know, from a relationship building and trust building perspective, we're always asking ourselves what or even in storytelling terms. You know, if we think of ourselves as an ensemble cast, even the 3 of us here. Right? As if we're each of us are 3 characters, We each have our own motivations as characters.
Michael:Right? As we've gotten to know each other, you've learned I'm fueled by chocolate. You know? That's part of my character. And, you know, and I have a second fridge for chocolate.
Michael:I use the traffic in kilos of it. It's my signature you know, it's my vice of choice. It's my signature gift, chocolate, chocolate, chocolate. You know, you've learned about my my travels and adventures. And so, like, we each have different you know, we're characters, and we have different motivations.
Michael:And the question that's in the mind of an audience from a sales perspective is the following, which is simply the way I I I like to frame it is it is this following binary. Are you just trying to sell me more shit? Or do you give a shit about my world, where I am, and where I'm trying to get to? Empathy. Right?
Michael:So how do you communicate that intention and motivation genuinely? Like, I really give a crap. And so from that place, exactly as you said, you know, Louie, is is being sitting in that coaching seat, and the key is to not be prescriptive or to, sort of force a conclusion. Because at the end of the day, they're the ones who have to live and own the story. It's their choice, not not mine, not yours.
Michael:Right? They have agency, but it's helping them orient and name and distinguish the things that like, most of us were kinda drowning because, again, we're swimming in these seas of stories. We don't know which way is up, down, left, or right. Is this the end of the beginning or the beginning of the end? Like, where are we right now?
Luigi:You bring up a really good point, right, that from that intentional component, for me, that's the foundation of great selling. Yeah. Because if I have that intention of I really do wanna help you get to that aspirational state, My job's an enabler. I'm a coach and a guide. And sometimes, no matter how good of a job I've done, you're just not ready to take that step.
Luigi:And with the right intention, I can say that's okay. I can still guide you. I can still educate you, and we're absolutely gonna build on this relationship. And even if you don't pay me, that's okay. Right?
Luigi:Because that is what good intention's all about. And I find that those are the types of relationships that have yielded the biggest return for me, you know, not being so focused on the transactional outcome and saying, just because you might not be at that right step yet, I shouldn't just stop, go do what I need to do, and come back and say, are you ready to buy? Because it's very transactional. Right? So for me, Michael, this has been an incredible episode.
Luigi:And usually, our episodes go for 25 minutes.
Michael:Oh, shit. I could literally like, we could we could I'm sorry.
Luigi:We could keep going and
Michael:Yeah. Maybe we could
Luigi:entice you. Yeah. I was just gonna say, Dave, maybe we could entice Michael to be a guest in our community, because your
Dave:Slips your bar of chocolate. Yeah.
Luigi:Just your chocolate. Yeah. We get we get we'll we'll do some trough, chocolate trafficking, Martha. We've got some chocolate that we know.
Michael:You know exactly the bread that I'm looking for. Yes. They sell they sell them in kilo bricks and, yeah, Monsieur Touff, to the to to folks listening is is actually one of my favorite chocolatiers, specifically in Melbourne, that make the world's best janduja, which is kind of oxymoronic because janduja is is really a specialty that comes from Torino, Italy. It uses hazelnuts from the Piedmont region. But it's a certain process that as I was jokingly sharing with the guys is actually chocolate.
Michael:It's it's the turn turn the lights down low kinda chocolate. So, yeah, it'll be part of our ongoing bromance. You guys lend me a couple bricks of that and, you know, I'll I'll do just about anything. We yeah.
Luigi:But we know we know that. We know, We know how to get that sexual thing going.
Michael:You know my language alone. So yep. You know my language of love. Can I leave with one last thing just to kinda, you know, plant a seed with everybody is? Let's let's contextualize everything we've been talking about in the context of AI.
Michael:So generative AI as a disruptive force that's gonna redefine the future of work, that's redefining companies' go to market strategies, that's redefining how companies think about IP, that think about how they're doing what they're doing, and it's starting to impact all of us with what we're selling and how we're selling. And I wanna I wanna connect the dots on something that you brought up, Louis, around around transactional versus relational. So so here's here's the last point which is that so generative AI, knowledge is dead. Wisdom is queen. Yeah.
Michael:What does this mean? Right? We now live in a world of infinite knowledge at our fingertip and it's structured knowledge. This ain't just typing a query into Google. You know?
Michael:Like, CHAD GPT actually conveys very coherent narrative in its ability to structure its thinking in a clear, concise, compelling way. So we now need to be more we need to be smarter or more valuable or distinctive than the machines. So, otherwise, what's our job as humans? So if knowledge is dead, wisdom is queen. What is wisdom?
Michael:Well, wisdom are the stories that you tell. And the way that we tell our stories is it comes out of the experiences that we've had. This is why the best salespeople often right? Like, hey. Like, I've I've put in a few reps.
Michael:I've got a few miles of tread on these tires. Right? So it's it's taking a look at the past experiences that you've had and the experiences of the other customers or clients that you've worked with and your ability to tell stories out of that, now you're offering people wisdom, perspective, or point of view. And that's the heart of relationship versus transactional. Well, can't I just go get the SOP?
Michael:Can't I just get the, like, 12 step engineering schematic that I can get out of a generative AI tool? And, like, like, that's flood you know, flooding the zone. You can't have this generic copy paste type of content. You need insight. You need perspective.
Michael:And that, you know, and that wisdom and empathy is how you build these long standing trusted advisor type relationships.
Luigi:And you know what? What a way to wrap this up, Michael, because everything that you've described in that wrap up is what we're all about. Right? We're about helping Yes. Helping sales professionals really become seen as that trusted adviser.
Luigi:Because when they're seen as that trusted adviser, when they're seen as that consultant, they're getting a seat at the table. And for me, when you got a seat at the table, you're not selling to someone. You've become a partner, and you're collaborating with them. So I I've had a lot of fun. I've had there's a I've got a lot of notes.
Luigi:I'm gonna go back. I'm gonna jump on your site. I'm gonna now probably spend the next few weeks going down an Alice in Wonderland type scenario. But what's the best way for our audience to find, engage, read? Where should they go?
Michael:Yeah. Yeah. Couple of things. So one is, check out my latest book, Story 10 x. You can find it on Amazon in the Kindle, Audible, and print versions.
Michael:You also can find me on LinkedIn. So just look me up, Michael Margolis, storied. Send me a connection request. Just put in a note in there and let me know that you, you know, you discovered discovered me through through Growth Forum. And and then you can also find me on maven.com.
Michael:This is where we're doing our cohort based online courses. So we have narrative influence. That's a 5 week sprint method. We also have narrative change, which is a 2 parter. But narrative influence, the 5 week sprint, it specifically focuses on storytelling ROI and how to build a narrative using a a 3 step framework called SFB, which anchors to Aristotle's three proofs of rhetoric.
Michael:You have to see it. You have to feel it in order to believe it. So, yeah, you can find me all sorts of different places, but just reach out and connect. And then to the community, I just wanna give a shout out to you guys. So just as, you guys have gotten a lot out of this, I am getting so much value out of out of what you guys are doing and being a proud member of Growth Forum IO.
Michael:So you guys are badass. It's invaluable. Like, the way that you think about building the playbook sequentially, we're doing a lot right now in changing our b to b, like, go to market. And so I'm, you know, I'm sick me and my team, we're sitting down, taking notes, going through the worksheets, like, walking through, you know, the principles and the practices, wax on, wax off. So I just want you guys to know, man, I'm in your dojo too, and, and great.
Michael:We love that.
Dave:Have you ever wondered how fast growing companies 2, 3, and even 10 x their annual revenue? They have something more than just a sales plan. They have a sales operating system that is the engine that drives the revenue function for their business. If you need more qualified leads, if you're struggling to nurture deals, if you need to close more deals faster, or even if you need to hire a plus salespeople, click the link in this podcast episode or visit grow forum. Oo/apply to have a chat with Luigi and myself to see how we can help you.
Dave:Now back to the show. Well, Louie, we went over, quote, a lot on that episode, but it
Luigi:was too good to to cut log off. No. Cracking cracking cracking episode.
Dave:Let's, let's wrap it up. Right? How would you package this up, and how would you approach the buying committee based on everything you just learned?
Luigi:Yeah. I think couple of key takeaways. Right? If you think about the whole concept of the narrative, it's very aspirational. So I think the best way to take what we've learned or what you've learned today is really think about your business case.
Luigi:Really think about whatever proposal that you're sending out to a buyer, does it capture, in the very first two sentences the aspirational outcome, that narrative that your buyers are trying to achieve? And if you haven't, go away, start thinking about adding that into the early stage of your of your proposal. Next step is the story is the tactical way in which you're gonna help them get there. So that's for me the big, big takeaway. Right?
Luigi:In order to influence a buying committee, we've gotta help them see that this is a a practice. This is an approach that will allow them to get to that to that aspirational state. And we've spoke about this time and time again, Dave. People don't buy what you do. They buy the outcome you help them achieve.
Luigi:And this is the key. This is an intentional focus on saying, right. I'm not here to sell a product or service to you. I'm here to help understand and help you get clarity. If you've already got clarity over that future state, great.
Luigi:And if you don't, I'm here to get to work with you to build that narrative around what's possible, help get clarity over the problems that you're experiencing that'll prevent you from getting there, and build a road map that shows you how to get there. And that, again, for me, everything that we spoke about today, you can wrap up into that sales methodology. That our job is about enabling, guiding people, and helping the buying committee arrive at that point of decision. And that's why everything that I heard today just reinforced and validated the sales practices that we execute and that we preach.
